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Charging Scenario - Replace DVSR with DC-DC Charger?

evilbit

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New boater wanting to float an idea past the experts. I'm looking at options for upgrading my house battery capacity and am drawn to this Dakota Lithium 135Ah group 24 LiFePo as a mostly drop-in replacement for what the dealer installed. I also intend to install a NOCO Genius 10x2 onboard. From reading here, I understand that the DVSR would need to be modified to prevent paralleling the batteries while using the NOCO (or at rest on the water) due to higher resting voltage of LiFePo. Instead of that, what if I removed the DVSR completely and installed this Victron Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC Battery Charger running in charger mode? Here's what I believe that would do, and please correct me if I'm wrong:
  • DC-DC charger isolates the start and house batteries according to the manual
  • Because the Victron isn't powered when the Start switch is off, when connected to shore my NOCO will work as intended to charge start (lead-acid) and house (LiFePo) independently
  • It has built-in engine-run detection to only charge the house when the alternator is putting out
  • It has real charging profiles for the LiFePo house battery (can't hurt, right?)
  • Built-in monitoring
Am I getting this right?

Screenshot 2024-01-26 at 11.28.23 AM.png
 

FSH 210 Sport

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Your boat only has about 25-28 amps of charging capacity from the alternators, using a DC to DC charger will consume some of that power in the form of losses.

Bullet point three: Why would you not want the start battery to get charged when the alternators are putting out?

Have you read through this thread? https://jetboaters.net/threads/conversion-to-lifepo-batteries.35834/
That is pretty inclusive of the LFP battery upgrade. Modifying your dvsr is pretty easy. But before you do any of that, I’d suggest installing the Victron smart shunt and measure accurately how much usage you really have and whether or not upgrading is warranted. I’m all for the LFP house battery, but if you’ve got enough power for what you do then why do it?

@lazergeek just set up his dvsr with a couple of relays from the ignitions so that no matter which engine is on the dvsr will function normally, then when the engines are turned off the dvsr is de activated. I activate and deactivate mine via a rocker switch on the dash.

If you want to set up the dvsr so that it only operates normally while you are using the boat, cut the red wire and hook it to the switched side of the start or house battery. Then when you park the boat and turn off the batteries, charger will charge both batteries independently.

If you do go the LFP route, I would recommend getting the Victron IP67 charger for at least the LFP battery, it charges at 25 amps.
 

evilbit

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Your boat only has about 25-28 amps of charging capacity from the alternators, using a DC to DC charger will consume some of that power in the form of losses.
Good point. Hadn't thought of that. It's pretty efficient at max 98.5%, but that adds up over time.

Bullet point three: Why would you not want the start battery to get charged when the alternators are putting out?
In my scenario above, the Start battery would always be charged (first) when the engine is running. Poor choice of wording on my part in the original post. I meant that although the start would always draw from the alternator when engine is on, the house would not.

I’m all for the LFP house battery, but if you’ve got enough power for what you do then why do it?
I have been through the thread you linked. Super helpful. It's kind-of what got me interested in the topic. That, and the fact that I saw a lot of 11.whatever volts on my screen last summer. You make a great point about measuring first to see if I have enough power in the current system. My fear is what I don't know, and that my boating is sporadic. For instance, I've never spent an entire day at a sandbar with friends, but what if I wanted to? It's too late to do anything about an undersized batt at that point. I'm naturally attracted to excess capacity for that reason - my lack of experience.

Thx for recommendation on IP67 25A charger if I move to LFP house.

With all of that in mind, understanding that it could be done through traditional DVSR mod approach, does my understanding of DC-DC charging in the above scenario check out? It seems like there is a benefit to the longevity of the LFP battery this way as opposed to taking DC raw from the alternator. I have also seen mentions of the lower resistance of lithium batteries placing additional strain on alternators, but that may not be true for our boats.
 

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All of that concerning charging a LFP battery with our boats charging systems are in the thread that I linked. The battery’s built in BMS will handle protecting the battery, but, the reg / rect on our boats use to modulate the output of the PMA (permanent magnet alternator) alternator makes it a nice marriage to LFP batteries since a PMA alternator is always at full output, the excess is shunted to ground.

Your understanding of DC to DC alternators is correct. What I was thinking of doing was to run a battery lead from my truck to the boat and use a DC to DC alternator to charge by trolling motor batteries since I have approximately 400 amps of charging power from my truck. But, what I decided I would do in the future is to install a 3000W inverter on my truck and just run an AC cord from the truck to the boats on board chargers in the future, and with the Victron Chargers it will go pretty quick. This will be mainly for running down the road, but, I could use this set up if I was off grid somewhere. I also intend to get a 1000 Watt honda generator to take along in those instances.

I like the way you think, better to have that capacity and not need it as opposed to the other way around… based on my experience thus far, I’d put that shunt in first and see how much you are using. This will tell you what size LFP battery you will need. A group 24 LFP size battery has exponentially more power than a FLA of the same size, roughly three times the energy storage as a matter of fact. I have not used much on my LFP house battery relatively speaking, I think maybe 25% of its capacity, I can tell you that it charges pretty darn fast off of the boats alternators. Hey, if you have the room, you can just do a 100Ah LFP battery and be totally covered as far as demand goes unless you put in some monster stereo with a huge amp(s).

In essence your boat came with a DC to DC charger.. thats how the DVSR works since the leads from the engine go to the start battery. Where the DC to DC charger comes into its own is if you were to be charging your boat batteries, including the LFP battery, from your tow vehicle. The DC to DC charger will only draw 50A from your tow vehicles alternators max, which should, provided you have a large enough alternator, to keep from damaging it. And when I say large enough alternator I mean like a 100 or 150 A alternator so that the duty cycle is low on said alternator because that DC to DC charger on a LFP battery is doing to deliver 50 A until the LFP battery is almost full. Does that make sense? If the alternator on your tow vehicle is not 150A, then you can either get small DC to DC charger, or, and I do not know if this is possible on the Victron unit you have shown, to change the charge rate in the DC to DC charger, I know you can do that with the IP67 chargers.
 

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Ahhh. That's the good stuff! Thank you for explaining a more applicable DC-DC scenario. That makes sense. For what it's worth that Victron I linked can limit its current draw. Now I know why that would be useful.

I have gone back over your exchange with @lazergeek regarding the relay setup, and I'm really digging that that approach. I have not fished wires through the boat and was looking for an alternative to having that experience, BUT I see the merits of doing it that over what I was cooking up. I'm going to take your idea and put in the shunt to monitor and see what I learn about consumption vs. current capacity before changing anything. Part of this stems from enthusiasm to play with the new boat while she hibernates for the winter, so forgive my inclination to overcomplicate.

Love what you're thinking about charging going down the road. The ability to essentially take shore power with you down the road using the same path and equipment as if in a slip/barn sounds awesome, and a good choice over adding a separate DC-DC setup. I'd like to pass someone on the Interstate with an extension cord jacked into the side of their boat!
 

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Ahhh. That's the good stuff! Thank you for explaining a more applicable DC-DC scenario. That makes sense. For what it's worth that Victron I linked can limit its current draw. Now I know why that would be useful.

I have gone back over your exchange with @lazergeek regarding the relay setup, and I'm really digging that that approach. I have not fished wires through the boat and was looking for an alternative to having that experience, BUT I see the merits of doing it that over what I was cooking up. I'm going to take your idea and put in the shunt to monitor and see what I learn about consumption vs. current capacity before changing anything. Part of this stems from enthusiasm to play with the new boat while she hibernates for the winter, so forgive my inclination to overcomplicate.

Love what you're thinking about charging going down the road. The ability to essentially take shore power with you down the road using the same path and equipment as if in a slip/barn sounds awesome, and a good choice over adding a separate DC-DC setup. I'd like to pass someone on the Interstate with an extension cord jacked into the side of their boat!
Love the enthusiasm to make your awesome boat even more awesome.. the LFP batteries are pretty remarkable in their ability to store a lot of energy, maintain their voltage, and charge 5 times as fast as a FLA battery. FLA batteries are tough though, you can beat them up pretty good and as long as you don’t let them sit at some level of discharge, don’t discharge them beyond 50%, and once a month during heavy usage you check them with a hydrometer and run a monthly equalization charge they perform decently.

With the way @lazergeek did his DVSR thing, you just have to be sure not to leave the key on, which come to think of it may not be an option for you, don’t you have to leave the key(s) on to keep the connext screen powered up so you can control lighting, tunes, etc? For us 210 FSH owners, there is very limited control function from the connext screen, the only thing I can think of is setting the basic functions like clock, language etc, and the on / off times for the aerator for the live well when it is in auto, everything is done by rocker switches, except the stereo it is done from the control head. If that is true then you will just have to wire in a rocker switch.. easy peasey.. not sure what plans you have for other things on your boat, what about an auxiliary 12V buss behind the helm for future add ons?? I installed an aux buss to feed my second bilge pump, electric raw water wash down, thats something you may want on your boat, they are very handy for cleaning up the boat while on the water, perhaps some kind of spreader lights or extra mood lighting on the boat?

Suggestion; when you pull in wires run at least two extra spare sets of wires for future. If you don’t use them no big deal, but if you want to wire in, I dunno, perhaps an air pump for SUP’s and towables? I know I want to wire in at least two more 12V power ports, and a few usb charger ports. Here’s a link to the 12 V buss that I put in. https://jetboaters.net/threads/12-volt-accessory-buss-additional-switches.37156/#post-604853 I can run all kinds of stuff off of that buss, just use in line fuses for ckt protection. Man this is reminding me of all the stuff I want to do!

The nice thing about that shunt is there is another voltage port for the start battery, and you can see how many amps are going into the house battery while you are running, that is really handy on the LFP’s as you can see when they are getting pretty well charged as the amps start dropping off. The most I’ve seen on my boat is 26A with both engines going.

The updated Victron Battery chargers have a plethora of settings in them. This is pretty useful if I was at a camp ground or whatever and the outlet would not support the 25A per battery charging of my three trolling motor batteries, I can just go in via the app and turn them down to 10A. Here’s another thing about LFP charging, a Li charging profile has a very short absorption cycle because Li batteries do not need that like a lead acid battery battery does, both agm and fla.

As far as extension cord while driving, its not that far out of the norm really, there is a cord connecting your boat trailer to the truck. You just have to be smart about how you run it. By 120 volt port is on the side of the helm in my boat, so it would just go from the bed of the truck up over the bow and down inside… I put an anchor roller on so that would be a very convenient place to run it.
 

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That aux buss is going to have to go in. You're right - once I get this battery thing figured out I'd like to add an air compressor for inflatables right behind it. While I like to cruise, my 3 kids and their friends are all about being hauled around on the water.

I didn't even think about how my ignition might be different than FSH 210, and I admit to not remembering how it works after only running her for 6 weeks before pulling the batteries and putting her to bed. This thread reports some people have access to tunes, etc. with batteries on, but key turned off. I'm hoping mine works that way, too. Will need to put this on hold until I can get the batteries back in and test it.

While I could switch it like you, I'm really looking for a solution that doesn't require that. That's a fine option for me, but I'm not the only one running the boat. Even that small extra complexity will work against the enjoyment my wife has when she's there without me, and I'd like to keep that as high as possible for future spending purposes. So, it sounds like my automated options are:
  1. Relay tied to ignition solution a la lazergeek IF my key doesn't need to be turned to use battery on the sandbar (or parked between skiers, tubers, surfers constantly coming on/off during the day).
  2. Implement my originally proposed solution and just take the slight hit on current loss (slower charging).
  3. New idea: Insert a diode like this between the alternator and the start battery +, and power the DVSR red loop from the alternator side of the diode. That way DVSR would only be active when alternator is making Vs. This option won't work if the alternator needs to sense a charge on the lead to start battery in order to generate. I've heard that some do but haven't been able to find info on ours.
Any opinions on #3 as a solution?

Thanks again for the many great suggestions!
 
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FSH 210 Sport

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That aux buss is going to have to go in. You're right - once I get this battery thing figured out I'd like to add an air compressor for inflatables right behind it. While I like to cruise, my 3 kids and their friends are all about being hauled around on the water.

I didn't even think about how my ignition might be different than FSH 210, and I admit to not remembering how it works after only running her for 6 weeks before pulling the batteries and putting her to bed. This thread reports some people have access to tunes, etc. with batteries on, but key turned off. I'm hoping mine works that way, too. Will need to put this on hold until I can get the batteries back in and test it.

While I could switch it like you, I'm really looking for a solution that doesn't require that. That's a fine option for me, but I'm not the only one running the boat. Even that small extra complexity will work against the enjoyment my wife has when she's there without me, and I'd like to keep that as high as possible for future spending purposes. So, it sounds like my automated options are:
  1. Relay tied to ignition solution a la lazergeek IF my key doesn't need to be turned to use battery on the sandbar (or parked between skiers, tubers, surfers constantly coming on/off during the day).
  2. Implement my originally proposed solution and just take the hit on voltage loss (slower charging).
  3. New idea: Insert a diode like this between the alternator and the start battery +, and power the DVSR red loop from the alternator side of the diode. That way DVSR would only be active when alternator is making Vs. This option won't work if the alternator needs to sense a charge on the lead to start battery in order to generate. I've heard that some do but haven't been able to find info on ours.
Any opinions on #3 as a solution?

Thanks again for the many great suggestions!
The other option is finding a “run hot” or a hot that is only energize when the engines are running… I’ve thought about the same thing for my boat. By the easiest for me is the @lazergeek set up.

I find it interesting that BEP marine or Blue Sea for that matter has not come out with a Li DVSR / ACR. I‘m sure I could come up with a relay set up that would work at higher on / off voltage settings, I may have to look into that further.
 

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I find it interesting that BEP marine or Blue Sea for that matter has not come out with a Li DVSR / ACR. I‘m sure I could come up with a relay set up that would work at higher on / off voltage settings, I may have to look into that further.
For sure! I have to believe this is coming soon. BEP acknowledges the situation and allows you to adjust engage/disengage thresholds in this Smart Battery Hub, but that just seems silly to swap everything out for that to solve this one thing.
 

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Why not swap the start battery for a lithium starting battery at the same time and use the dvsr.?

Dakota shows them on the same page as their house battery.

Very nice schematic:cool:
 

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DVSR engages (closes & parallels the batts) when either connected battery hits 13.4V. Based on @FSH 210 Sport LFP install thread, I understand that the LFP batteries resting voltage is higher than that when charged, which would cause the DVSR to stay engaged all the time.
 

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DVSR engages (closes & parallels the batts) when either connected battery hits 13.4V. Based on @FSH 210 Sport LFP install thread, I understand that the LFP batteries resting voltage is higher than that when charged, which would cause the DVSR to stay engaged all the time.
And, the dvsr does not disengage until 12.7 Volts…I’ll have to ask Mr. Whoppee tonight and see if he has anything.. a given relay would have to engage around 14.2 volts and disengage around 13.8 volts.. a LFP battery will stay up in the 14 volt range for a bit, but will drop quickly when then engines are off and starts to transfer electrons to a lead acid battery.
 
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Cool thanks.
Ditching the dvsr thingus is a ways down on my list, post warranty project.
The Victron stuff sure looks nice.
 

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So if I replace both of my interstate lead acid batteries with a 12v lifepoop and connect both sides of the drvs thingus to it will that work? (Im a Hydraulics guy, we just pick a different valve, the electrical numbers stuff makes my head hurt.)
 

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So if I replace both of my interstate lead acid batteries with a 12v lifepoop and connect both sides of the drvs thingus to it will that work? (Im a Hydraulics guy, we just pick a different valve, the electrical numbers stuff makes my head hurt.)
That depends on what it is you are trying to do. What is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish?

The dvsr closes the paralleling ( // ) switch when voltage gets to 13.4 volts, and opens the switch breaking // when the voltage gets down to 12.7 volts on the //‘d start and house battery. With just one LFP battery, whether start or house, the dvsr will see the resting voltage of 13.6 and close the switch // the start and house batteries.

If you disconnect the ground wire that goes to the dvsr it will not work.
 

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Maintain reliability of my stock system that is working as designed. I'm concerned with messing up the expensive connext system by changing stuff to the higher voltage lifepoop.
Simplify. 1 pricey lightweight battery/charger with Bluetooth that should last my lifetime vs lead acid and it's baggage.
Weight reduction.
Consistent voltage supply.
Fsh 210 I'm holding on to your statement that the dirt bike rectifier charging system on these motors is compatible with a quality bms lifepoop battery.
I only have 1 motor to charge with. stock stereo is great,
 

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Maintain reliability of my stock system that is working as designed. I'm concerned with messing up the expensive connext system by changing stuff to the higher voltage lifepoop.
Simplify. 1 pricey lightweight battery/charger with Bluetooth that should last my lifetime vs lead acid and it's baggage.
Weight reduction.
Consistent voltage supply.
Fsh 210 I'm holding on to your statement that the dirt bike rectifier charging system on these motors is compatible with a quality bms lifepoop battery.
I only have 1 motor to charge with. stock stereo is great,
Well, I have got basically two seasons on my set up and things seem to be working perfectly. I’ve also got two dirt bikes that only have electric starters in them that both have antigravity brand LFP batteries with the same PMA systems that are basically the same size alternators, 200 watt, and those systems I have lots of time on. The look of the reg / rect on those bikes is the same as the ones in our boats.

Having said that, I’d keep two batteries, one for a dedicated start, the other for the house, and put a smart shunt on the house, you should see 14 amps max coming in from your alternator at 3500 rpm and above, it will drop off a bit as the battery starts to charge up some.

Its up to you whether or not you have a LFP start battery, but just from an economics stand point I’d stick with either an AGM or FLA battery for the start battery and either run your dvsr with a rocker switch on the dash, or wire it up with a relay like @lazergeek did. The advantage of going with two LFP batteries is that if you inadvertently leave the dvsr on the start will just share the load with the house battery, as opposed to the house battery trying to charge the AGM / FLA start battery. As far as mainstream goes, only Dakota Lithium has a dual purpose start / deep cycle LFP battery. Battle Born does not recommend using their batteries as start batteries, but I know one member has tested them that way and they worked fine. I will try and measure starter current draw on our boats this summer as well as some other measurements.

As a reminder, on my set up, the rocker switch that controls the dvsr operating power is fed from the aux buss I installed, and the aux bus is fed from the switched side of the house battery, so if I forget to turn off the rocker switch, when I turn off the battery switches it kills the power to the dvsr.
 

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I have lots of time to figure out which way I want to go.
My interstates are still fresh. Solid state lfp's soon.


"The all new Next Gen Lithium Cranking Battery. Now featuring Bluetooth and slightly more amps at 105A

The only marine cranking battery you need. Run 4-5 graphs, live scope & Mega 360 and still start your outboard motor."


 
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