Drove a lightning yesterday...

[zpaul]

The savings are questionable.
Upfront cost of EV is pretty significant comparing F150 and Lightning.
Upgrading electrical and installing Outlets.
EVs insurance is usually way more. So if a gas truck would cost $2,000 to insure for a year then EV would be at least $3,000.
Yes it is less maintenance, but oil changes and tire rotations twice a year end up $200+.
Charging at Superchargers or charging stations is $0.43 per minute or per KWh and kills all savings pretty quickly vs Gas.
Only savings you get is charging at night at home.

 

[anmut]

Big banks. The ones that I vest billions at a time and own enough shares to fire the CEO of he doesn't do what they want.

Banks should not be allowed to be or appoint any sort of control in a company. The bias is clear, if I also am invested into solar panels, I'm going to push you to go "zero carbon". If I'm invested in battery manufacturers, I'm going to push for extended range BEVs. By the same virtue, if I'm invested in oil, I'm gonna push for large,.fuel inefficient vehicles with lots of plastic content. If I'm invested in transcontinental shipping companies, I'm gonna push for globalization of supply chains.

If you also own media outlets, you can push them to report on how everything is coming from this issue that you're invested in the "solution" for. If you're also big campaign donors you can push for regulations move your interests forward. It just kind of goes on and on, and at the end of the day banks should be required to be sitting on the sidelines and not be involved in these companies and their operations. Even things as.simple.as ESG scores dictating investments is a massively effective tool of control.

Good points. Also, I would like someone to tell me how... anyone can generate ANYTHING with zero carbon. Energy isn't created, it's only transferred.

 

[@JC!]

Good points. Also, I would like someone to tell me how... anyone can generate ANYTHING with zero carbon. Energy isn't created, it's only transferred.

The sad state of our education system ensures that these climate change hucksters can convince the ill-educated masses of anything as long as they use scary words and imagery.

Also carbon is not a pollutant...

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

There sure seems to be a lot of angst in this thread over EV’s. I’m not quite sure why, as its not like someone has to buy an EV.

It’s not just the U.S. that is moving towards EV’s, but most of the world. I believe they will someday dominate the market, but have no idea when that time will come? 10 years? 20 years?

We all have different needs, wants, desires, and price points for vehicles we drive. In 2019, pre-covid, the average price for a new car was about 39K, fast forward 4 years and the average price is about 48K. Part of the increase in price, I believe, is some of the automakers focusing on fewer, more profitable cars. Today, I think only a minority of new car buyers can afford to purchase an EV. In the next 3 - 5 years, as newer, cheaper, models become available, that will likely change. In the next 5 years, I think we will also see a huge increase in the availability of charging stations.

I have had ICE vehicles ever since I turned 16, more than 45 years ago. Currently, my wife and I have my 2020 Ram and her 2007 Jeep Commander (purchased new). Our next new vehicle will likely by a compact SUV EV. We will likely wait until the 2025’s come out and overall variety is greater and prices are lower than what is currently available today. Have zero interest in buying another full size truck EV as I’m quite content with the one I currently own (for me the ideal tow vehicle) and I plan on keeping it for a while. My truck has been our daily driver for the last 3 years, but it would be nice to have another vehicle to share the driving that I could charge in our garage. Don’t really have a desire for a hybrid vehicle. Our situation and our choice. Yours may be different and that‘s also okay.

Not getting into any science or political discussion on this thread, as I think most folks have already made up their minds.

Jim

 

[@JC!]

More evidence of the cratering of demand for EVs in the US...

GM delays EV truck production at Michigan plant by year

General Motors Co said on Tuesday it will delay production of electric pickup trucks at its plant in Michigan's Orion Township by a year as the No. 1 U.S. automaker grapples with flattening demand for electric vehicle.

www.reuters.com

General Motors Co said on Tuesday it will delay production of electric pickup trucks at its plant in Michigan's Orion Township by a year as the No. 1 U.S. automaker grapples with flattening demand for electric vehicle.

The move is the latest sign that electric vehicle production and demand may not be as strong as forecast. GM had been set to begin production of the electric Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra in late 2024 at the suburban Detroit plant. The company said the plan now is to start it in late 2025.

As for Ford, more info regarding tanking sales numbers for EVs...

a union leader at the plant told the WSJ:

“It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that our sales for the Lightning have tanked”

Ford has 30% of all the Lightnings they ever made still on hand. READ THAT AGAIN... 30% of ALL THE LIGHTNINGS THEY'VE BUILT ARE UNSOLD!

Wholesale sales of the Ford F-150 Lightning have experienced a sharp decline, plummeting by 49% from their peak of 6,857 units in the fourth quarter of 2022 to 3,503 units in the third quarter of 2023.

At present, there are 8,012 brand-new Ford F-150 Lightning trucks listed on CarEdge. Considering the total cumulative sales figure of 27,877 F-150 Lightning units delivered to dealerships, this indicates that approximately 29% of all F-150 Lightning vehicles ever manufactured remain unsold, sitting idle on dealers’ lots.

Source: Ford disclosure; CarEdge

As Elon would say... WOW!

 

[HangOutdoors]

In the next 3 - 5 years, as newer, cheaper, models become available, that will likely change. In the next 5 years, I think we will also see a huge increase in the availability of charging stations.

I don't think that is going to be the case. Vehicles are climbing pretty steady. As sales are dropping and less people buying new. Vehicles are climbing faster than Cost of living wage increases. The UAW strike also doesn't help that. The word around town, and I live very near to many MFG plants in the Detroit Area, is that once the strike is worked out, there will be mass layoffs and production is going to slow. Honestly I think we are headed into some interesting times in the Auto industry.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

When EV's are forced down everyone's throat, there will be a lot of homeowners surprised at the 20k bill to upgrade their home electric to cover another 220V in the garage. The whole movement reeks of desperation by a tyrannical minority hell bent on blaming the most environmental nation on the planet for the sins of those that pollute the worst.

I mean, who doesn't want to live in a fantasy land where driving an EV baptizes away your sins of everything else in your house being made by China, right?

Why would you have to run another 220/240 line to the garage? Wouldn’t it simply be having an electrician run another line from you existing box to the charging equipment? Why would it cost 20K?

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

Why would you have to run another 220/240 line to the garage? Wouldn’t it simply be having an electrician run another line from you existing box to the charging equipment? Why would it cost 20K?

Jim

In my case in my home I don't have the additional capacity so I would have to run another line of the pole to my fuse panel. Upgrade my entire fuse panel then have the run from the fuse panel go out towards the garage and intall the charger. 15k-20k for an electrician to do it all includes all hardware needed. Furthermore where I live, if you upgrade your lines to the house, it has to now go underground so they have to dig it out 80ft which could be additional costs once surveyed. That will never ever happen.

Perhaps if I bought new and I had all the capacity I needed on fresh wires and a panel, it may make it a bit more palatable.

 

[HangOutdoors]

From what I understand a Level 2 charger is between $1,000 to $2000 give or take. A level 3 is between $12,000 to $30,000 depending.

 

[zpaul]

From what I understand a Level 2 charger is between $1,000 to $2000 give or take. A level 3 is between $12,000 to $30,000 depending.

Level 2 charger is plenty to charge overnight. On Tesla it adds 30-35 miles of range an hour.
110 outlet is about 3-4 miles of range an hour.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I don't think that is going to be the case. Vehicles are climbing pretty steady. As sales are dropping and less people buying new. Vehicles are climbing faster than Cost of living wage increases. The UAW strike also doesn't help that. The word around town, and I live very near to many MFG plants in the Detroit Area, is that once the strike is worked out, there will be mass layoffs and production is going to slow. Honestly I think we are headed into some interesting times in the Auto industry.

Most of the world’s automakers are betting heavy on EV futures. Many of them have sub 40K models in their near futures (one of the reasons that we are waiting to purchase our next vehicle). I read the other day that 10% of world (added) vehicle sales in last 12 months were EV (with hybrid sales at 5%). I agree it will be very interesting to see what the auto industry offers in the next 3 - 5 years.

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

 

[zpaul]

View attachment 210482

Incentives in CA, MD, DC would do it.

In MD You get $7500 from federal and $2500 from State.
Local Utilities are running promos where they subsidize Level 2 charger install.
Additionally, off-peak rates almost let you charge the EV at $0.03-0.04 per KWh.
If you charge your EV on BGE program where they decide what time to charge your EV (mostly midnight till 7AM) you get additional incentives.
At the end 15k miles a year on EV will cost you $300-400.
No road tax either at the pump for a very heavy EV car.
Sad part is that is all this is incentivized through others taxes.
In my community almost 40% of houses now have at least one Tesla. And before 2021 we had none.

 

[HangOutdoors]

Incentives in CA, MD, DC would do it.

In MD You get $7500 from federal and $2500 from State.
Local Utilities are running promos where they subsidize Level 2 charger install.
Additionally, off-peak rates almost let you charge the EV at $0.03-0.04 per KWh.
If you charge your EV on BGE program where they decide what time to charge your EV (mostly midnight till 7AM) you get additional incentives.
At the end 15k miles a year on EV will cost you $300-400.
No road tax either at the pump for a very heavy EV car.
Sad part is that is all this is incentivized through others taxes.
In my community almost 40% of houses now have at least one Tesla. And before 2021 we had none.

Very interesting and somewhat bothered. So those whom don't want or can't do an EV pay for those whom do. I guess that is the norm now. I don't think there are those kind m of incentives available around here. Will check on it

 

[@JC!]

Getting away from any other argument other than economics, the fact is that very few consumers are willing or able to pay a stiff premium for EVs (*and most of those have already done so) and manufacturers (*other than Tesla) lose bundles of cash on each EV sold even at the currently inflated prices. At some point, even with the ridiculous government subsidies (*paid out of our taxes), something has to give and that's likely going be jobs lost and even companies going out of business (*barring another round of government bailouts... again with our money!).

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

In my case in my home I don't have the additional capacity so I would have to run another line of the pole to my fuse panel. Upgrade my entire fuse panel then have the run from the fuse panel go out towards the garage and intall the charger. 15k-20k for an electrician to do it all includes all hardware needed. Furthermore where I live, if you upgrade your lines to the house, it has to now go underground so they have to dig it out 80ft which could be additional costs once surveyed. That will never ever happen.

Perhaps if I bought new and I had all the capacity I needed on fresh wires and a panel, it may make it a bit more palatable.

Is this because you home has the older 100A service?

My home, only 18 months old, has 200A service. LOL, still need a new sub-panel as there is NO empty spots in the existing panel to wire a mini-split in our insulated storage room or a nice heater in my garage.

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

Is this because you home has the older 100A service?

My home, only 18 months old, has 200A service. LOL, still need a new sub-panel as there is NO empty spots in the existing panel to wire a mini-split in our insulated storage room or a nice heater in my garage.

Jim

Correct

 

[HangOutdoors]

So I open up the News and this article is there for me to read...... Wonder if I am being stalked by the internet now....

Some solid points in it. Some are a bit of a reach imho.

The latest attempt to take away your gas-powered car | Fox News

 

[zpaul]

So I open up the News and this article is there for me to read...... Wonder if I am being stalked by the internet now....

Some solid points in it. Some are a bit of a reach imho.

The latest attempt to take away your gas-powered car | Fox News

 

[jthackman]

the push to also eliminate gas appliances in homes will be part of this discussion. houses will need 400a service to accommodate all this - vehicle charger, elec tankless wh, elec furnace/heat pump, elect range, pool/spa pump motors, etc....will be lots of demand